Tuesday, July 17, 2012

FamilyLife 2.0

So on to day two. You can read day one if you haven't.

It is absolutely amazing to me how much they repeat themselves. I guess if you don't have much to say, say it again.

FamilyLife Today® Radio Transcript
Things to Consider

Bob: Some families today are breaking with cultural norms and traditions and deciding that Mom will be the provider and Dad will stay at home and raise the kids. Dennis Rainey says the long-term implications of that decision are consequential.

Take note of the "breaking with cultural norms" because the opposite of that is going to be argued soon.

Dennis: I've watched a number of couples make this decision. In their 20s, it was fun and kind of novel. In their 30s, it was okay. When they hit the 40s, they hit a wall; and they wake up, one day, angry.

You need to make some better friends.

And they don't get over it, especially the women. They get angry at the price they've paid, at the loss of being a mom, and at the man who was supposed to provide. They are looking at him, and they're evaluating him. They say, “He's running around, having a lot of fun; and he's become passive.”

Is this true for at home mom's as well? Are they just running around having a lot of fun? Because it seems in your first broadcast you talked about how hard they worked and you wouldn't want to do it because it was so hard.

Bob: This is FamilyLife Today for Tuesday, July 17th. Our host is the President of FamilyLife®, Dennis Rainey, and I'm Bob Lepine. So, is there something really wrong with making the decision for your family—Mom is the provider and Dad stays home to take care of the kids?


We're going to talk about that today. Stay tuned.

And welcome to FamilyLife Today. Thanks for joining us. So, you're going to take on “Mr. Mom” today; right?

Dennis: No, I'm not going to take on anybody. Mr. Mom was a movie that had the actor, Michael Keaton, in it. He had to stay home for a period of time because he lost a job; but it wasn't a permanent decision between him and his wife. He didn't become a stay-at-home dad on a long-term basis.

What I want to talk about today is probably best illustrated by Becky, who wrote me on Facebook®. She said, “My husband has been a stay-at-home dad. He calls himself a homemaker, which he is. I work full-time, and it works great for our family. He does the homeschooling of our kids, as well. I think, when you look at this, you need to see how God has gifted each of you and not go by what society expects.

Sounds like things are working well for you. Let's try to change that shall we.

“We got a lot of flack when we decided to do this, mostly from the Christian community. It was quite disheartening. My husband and I are in partnership to raise our family. Our kids are well-adjusted. They are actively involved at church and love Jesus Christ.”

That sounds awful. Time to fix that.

Bob: What we've already heard you say is that, as you look at this, you don't see it as a black-and-white issue, with an absolute sense—that it is always right or always wrong—for a dad to be at home as a stay-at-home dad; but you do think there is some biblical wisdom we can apply.

Dennis: I want to say that it is not wrong, 100 percent of the time, to stay at home, as a dad. It's not right, 100 percent of the time, to stay at home. I think some people are making that decision for the wrong reasons. I think some people are making that decision without understanding where it is going to take them, without understanding what it is going to do to their kids, and without understanding what it is going to do to their marriage, to their family, to their relationships, to them and their identity. But I'm running ahead of myself, at this point, and throwing the stone too soon.

Did you guys listen to the first show? I think you already said this.

Bob: [Laughter]

Dennis: I have four questions that I would ask a couple who would be considering this kind of lifestyle. The first question really gets near the heart of the matter, in my opinion. Ultimately, what are the values that this decision represents for your marriage, your family, and your children?

That we are partners working together to do what is best for our family. Those are the values that went into our decision.

Ultimately, Bob, I believe it is a value decision. As I've heard a lot of people make the decision, I think that money and standard of living is ultimately driving—not all, not all, certainly, not all—but is driving a number of folks to make this decision so that they can provide a standard of living that provides a lot of comfort and freedom for their family.

Having one spouse at home, either one, is a sacrifice. We could have more money coming in but we value our family more than that. We don't have cable but we have a parent at home.

Bob: Now, you're saying that is a factor for some couples. They are just looking at the raw economics of it. They are saying the wife can make a whole lot more money than the husband can. So, doesn't it just make sense—if she's earning and he's staying home so that you can enjoy the financial benefits?

That just seems like thinking.

If that is a couple's primary motivation, you're suggesting that couple really needs to pull back and say—

Dennis: I think they need to evaluate seriously because I think that can be and often is a faulty value system to make that decision.

Yes, having a husband work multiple jobs and never seeing the kids is a much better system.

I think, also, another value is that of fulfillment. We're talking about a woman who feels more fulfilled in the marketplace than she does at home and may say, “My husband is more gifted to stay home than I am.”

Bob: “He's more of a nurturer. He likes the home environment. I go stir-crazy when I'm around that.” I remember talking to a wife, one time, who said, “If I was at home, I would be a raving lunatic. It would not be good for our family.”

It may not be good for your family but you should do it anyway.

Dennis: Right. You talk about the consequences of all these decisions. First, you make your decisions and then your decisions make you. I talked to one person who said, “You know, I've watched a number of couples make this decision. In their 20s, it was fun and kind of novel. In their 30s, it was okay. When they hit the 40s, they hit a wall.” This person said, “They wake up, one day, angry. And they don't get over it, especially the women. They get angry at the price they've paid, at the loss of being a mom, and at the man who was supposed to provide. They are looking at him, and they‟re evaluating him. They say, "He's become passive; and he's just having a good time because the kids are now teenagers and don‟t really demand a lot of his time. So, he‟s running around, having a lot of fun."

That person you talked to was you. Did you hear the first part of the show?

I think what has to happen here is—I think you have to step back and you have to ask yourself, “What are the values that we embrace as a couple, and what are the kinds of values we want to represent our family? That really leads me to a second question, “Is the world pressing you into its mold as a man, as a woman, as a father, as a mother, and as a family?” Romans 12:1-2 says, “Don‟t be conformed to this world, but be transformed by the renewing of your mind.”

Remember the "breaking with cultural norms." Don't do that anymore!

The Scripture calls men, clearly, to be the heads of their homes—not a Gestapo head, not a dictator, but a servant leader of their wives and their children. Making money does not represent the power for a man to be the head of his home.

Because their is nothing more serving than literally serving your family.

Bob: Making money isn't how you demonstrate leadership.

So you are for at-home dads?

Dennis: No, it is one way that you can provide for your family; but because you make the most money or provide the money for the family, isn't the primary reason why a man is to be the head of his home. He's to be the head of his home because in the Bible—it clearly established a man as the leader of his home and called him to give up himself— to deny himself to follow Christ, and to lay down his rights to love his wife and his children. In some cases, Bob, it is a heavy mantle for a man to wear—to have to be that provider and to care for his family in extraordinary ways.

Bob: You know, some of our listeners heard you quote Romans 12:1-2—where you said, “Do not be conformed to this world, but be transformed by the renewing of your mind,”—and they would say, “Now, Dennis, if I‟m being conformed to this world, I‟m going to embrace these traditional roles. I mean, the world has established the role of the husband in the work place and the wife at home. Isn't that being conformed to this world if I just jump in and say, "Okay that's how it has to be for us‟?”

Good point Bob.

Dennis: I don't think the world was the one who established that. I think that was established, in Scripture, in Ephesians, Chapter 5, verse 23, where it says, “For the husband is the head of the wife, even as Christ is the head of the church.” I think, if there is anything we need to be suspicious of today, it is anything that seeks to undermine the pattern that is found in the Scriptures—of God giving men clear responsibility to love, lead, serve, and deny themselves on behalf of their wives.

Wait, just a minute ago it had nothing to do with money.

Bob: So, the first two questions you are calling couples to look at—as they are evaluating—“What ought to be our response to this?” and, “Is this the right way for us to organize our family?”


Question number one: “What do we value? What are the priorities that we are trying to establish here, and what is important to us?”

Think I already answered that.

Question number two is the question of, “Are we kicking against a biblical design? Are we being pressed by the culture into an unbiblical mold?”


You really just have to pull back and say, “Are we taking our cues from the Scriptures and what it would teach us, or are we taking our cues from the culture we live in?”

How about neither.

Dennis: I know I've been strident here. I know some of our listeners have recoiled at that, and I'll get some mail.

You've Got Mail.

Bob: There is some bristling taking place, even as you speak.

Sorry that was me. Tacos for lunch.

Dennis: I realize that; but I said earlier, “I do not believe that a stay-at-home dad can do it and feel like it is right, 100 percent of the time. I don't think you could say it is wrong, 100 percent of the time. Are there cases where this can occur and should occur? I think it is possible. I really do. I think it happens; okay? I'm saying, "For this to become normative in the Christian family has huge consequences."

Like happy, healthy families.

That leads me to the third question or the third issue. “Will this decision ultimately create an identity crisis?” Will it create an identity crisis for men--of what true masculinity is and his responsibility to work and to provide for his family? Will it also create a crisis of identity for a woman—who she is and how God has hardwired her as a nurturer--one who cares about the next generation?

No. You are making this kind of easy.

I visited some of the websites for stay-at-home dads and read some of the comments. I have to say I really had compassion on a group of dads because you could sense it in their writing. They were wondering, “Who are we? I go to PTA meetings at school, and I'm there with a bunch of moms. Who am I? How do I relate to them? Where are the other men I have a chance to relate to?”

I think it is one of the reasons why this convention for stay-at-home dads occurs every year. I think that is why they gather together. They are looking for other men they can identify with to be able to have a sense of self-respect.

If you think men get their self respect from conventions then pastors must have the lowest self respect of all. There are always conventions for pastors going on.

Bob: Whenever I think about this issue, I go to passages like 1Timothy, Chapter 5, where Paul tells Timothy to instruct men--that if a man fails to provide for his family and for those of his household, he is worse than an unbeliever. He doesn't say, “If a person....” He doesn't say—it is not “man”, in a generic-sense. It's pretty clearly understood that the man is providing for his household. There seems to be a clear instruction to men that the provision role is something that rests with them.

Dennis: That's right. That passage you are talking about in 1 Timothy is actually talking about widows and how men are to provide for their extended family; but I think the principle can be applied here—that a man needs to assume the responsibility to be that one who does provide for his family.

When a man doesn't work, when a man is not employed permanently, he will not thrive.


I've watched it, Bob. Men who don't work, men who don't provide for their families will end up losing self-respect.

Totally agree. Those guys should try being at-home dads.

They will end up with a lot of confusion about what it means to be a man. They will end up becoming, in many cases, passive; and they will start to coast.

I admit it. I coast downhill when I ride bikes with the boys.

I want to read—my friend, Robert Lewis, who works here, at FamilyLife--in his book, New Eve—I want to read what he said here. He said, “For men, this spells an identity crisis of the first order. A Newsweek article bears this out. For, with few exceptions, stay-at-home dads, who were interviewed, confessed their dislike of this new role. Why? Because from earliest boyhood, males fix their eyes on the broader world, outside the home, where they have a God-made hunger for adventure and accomplishment.

Although if you look at actual research instead of Newsweek articles it says the opposite.

“Women, too, are exhilarated by success; but for men, it's the very stuff of life. Men, who aren't conquering turf God has called them to, are not merely standing still. They are losing ground, and their masculine soul, in the process. Something dies inside a man when he gives up on authentic manhood and settles for something less than the call that lies within them. His manhood becomes hollow. When a man surrenders his life and leadership to a woman, as Adam did to Eve, both inevitably hate it in the end.”

Loving it.

Bob: Yes.

Dennis: Those are pretty strong words.

Bob: I think we also need to talk about that provider woman in a family--the one who is out in the marketplace. She is going to have to wrestle with Titus, Chapter 2, where older women are instructed to teach younger women to be lovers of their husbands, lovers at home, and trainers of their children.

And slaves to be subject to their masters. They have to wrestle with that too.

Now, a woman may say, “I can work in the marketplace and do those things.”

She can.

Dennis: Right.

Bob: And I would say we are not disputing that; but there is a primary responsibility here, and your job is going to pull you away from that a lot.

Dennis: And again, we are not picking up another stone and throwing it at working moms.

No mom working is OK just not if dad is taking care of the home.

Bob: Yes, we are not addressing the two-parent working household. We are really talking about that situation where mom has taken on the mantle of provision and dad is saying, “I'll just stay home and keep the house.”

Is that what your wife was doing, just keeping the house? You know dad means their are kids involved.

Dennis: I think it is back to what my friend said. It's what is going to make her angry in the end. Is she really going to be happy with her identity and with how that gets expressed because I do think there is a hard-wiring issue here of how God created us, male and female.

Let me go onto a fourth question I would encourage couples to ask, “What is the message you are sending to your sons and daughters by having Dad stay at home and take care of the kids?”

Bob: You are modeling something; aren't you?

Have you noticed you just keep repeating yourselves. This really didn't need to be two shows.

Dennis: You really are. I'm thinking of a dad who never worked—never provided for his family. The wife struggled to provide for the kids. There were four kids in the family. Those kids grew up wondering, “What is the responsibility of a dad if he doesn't get out and work?”

Taking care of the kids and the house.

This dad didn't. I won't get into what he did, but he didn't go to work. As a result, those four kids—as they've grown up and married—have all struggled, from an identity standpoint, with either being a man and, “How you do provide for your family,” or with being a woman—a wife and a mother—and how to relate to a man who is something different than their frame of reference.

How did women ever know how to work if their mother's didn't model it for them?

It also reminds me of another story—that is really at the other end of the spectrum—of a father who had a very lucrative job—made a lot of money, had season tickets to the Dallas Cowboys games—and was laid off. He came home and told his kids. They were initially ashamed as they watched their father take a job that paid significantly less. He even worked alongside some teenagers—in a form of employment that he could find because of the economic situation in their community.

The son of the father reflected back, as a young man. He said, “When I initially saw that, I was ashamed of my father because he had taken this job;” but he said, “Then, I began to realize that what he had really embraced here was his responsibility to work and to provide for his family. Then, I began to be extremely proud of my dad and respected him, as I watched him take a second job because he didn't quickly find another job where he was able to earn enough money to provide for the family.” He said, “I realize, as I grew up and became a man, what a gift my dad had given to me by modeling self- denial and moving into a tough situation to have to provide for his family.”

So much better than having his doctor wife work.

I'd ask anyone who is doing this—as you make this decision for your daughters and how they relate to a man, later on—for your sons and who they become as husbands, fathers, and breadwinners in the family—are you modeling something you want, from a generational standpoint, to be passed down to succeeding generations?

Yes. But I think I answered this last time.

I think it's a tough question,

Still not that tough.

Bob: but I think it's one that is worth really considering.

I done considered it.

I hope what I have done here is—is hopefully leave enough room for someone to disagree with me or to take on some of these issues, and make a decision, and to ultimately say, “This is God‟s will for me and for us, as a couple, and for our family, in Christ Jesus.” You know what I say to you? “You know what? That is your decision. You've got to make it;” but I do think there is a rebellion against God, occurring in this world, against His design for marriage and for the family. I think the world wants to distort what it means to be a godly man, a godly husband, and a godly father—and the same for being a woman, wife, and mother. I just don't hear a lot of people speaking up today on behalf of God's design and being willing to take the shots that come with it because it's not a popular message, necessarily; but you know what? We aren't called to popularity.

Thank God for that.

This book right here, the Bible—it calls us to live in a counter-cultural lifestyle.

I think I am.

It calls us to embrace the truth of Scripture and to pass it on generationally to others, who, hopefully, will pass it on to their kids. We are involved in a generational war for the soul of the family, and we need to win it.

Bob: Yes. And the only we are going to win it is exactly as you have said—by pointing people back to Scripture.

There it is.

We have to have our hearts and minds soaking in and saturated with what the Bible has to say about how we are to live—first of all, as transformed people, whose lives have been radically altered because of our relationship with Jesus Christ.

And then what that transformed life looks like—in our marriage relationships, as we raise our children, and as we think through the kind of issue we've been talking about here today. You are right. There are going to be folks who hear us talking about this subject this week—in fact, there have already been some who have gone to our website and looked at the transcripts of these programs. They have typed in where they disagree with what you are saying or why they think your view is the wrong view.

Yes we have.

It's fine to engage in that kind of dialog and that kind of debate, but we have to keep pressing one another back to the Scriptures. What does the Bible say? What do we learn from Scripture about the husband's role and the wife's role and how we are to live that out in a marriage relationship?

Luckily it doesn't say anything about men staying home to take care of their kids.

You talk, at length, about what a man's role in a family ought to be, what a man's role in the society ought to be in the book, that you've written, called Stepping Up: A Call to Courageous Manhood. You don't address this issue of stay-at-home dads in that book, specifically; but you do address dads as providers and what that provisionary role ought to look like in a family. Again, I want to encourage our listeners, if you don't have a copy of Dennis Rainey's book, Stepping Up: A Call to Courageous Manhood, get a copy. Go online at FamilyLifeToday.com for more information about how you can order the book from us, online. Again, the website is FamilyLifeToday.com.

And then make note of Saturday, August 4th. There are going to be churches all around the country that are hosting the Stepping Up National Men‟s Simulcast with James MacDonald, Crawford Loritts, Robert Lewis, and Dennis Rainey—all speaking at the event. You can find a church in your area that is hosting the event and sign up to join them—be a part of that Saturday event; or, if there‟s not a church in your area hosting the event, there‟s still time for you to sign up and be a host site for the Stepping Up National Men‟s Simulcast. Again, find out more about the event when you go online at FamilyLifeToday.com. Call us, toll-free, at 1-800-358-6329; that‟s 1-800-“F” as in family, “L” as in life, and then the word, “TODAY”.

I don't know if you've ever stopped to think about what goes into producing a radio program like FamilyLife Today— the recording engineers who work to capture the interviews that we do or the discussions that we have, the folks who provide the transcripts, those folks who have to load the audio so it can be syndicated to our network of radio stations, all around the country, or made available as a podcast online.

There is a lot of work that goes into the production of each day's program, and we have a dedicated staff that works very hard to make sure that we're getting the job done and to do it as cost-effectively as possible; but there is still a cost associated with producing and syndicating this program. You may wonder, “Who pays that cost?” Well, it's folks, like you,

Not me actually.

who help provide the financial support this ministry needs to produce and syndicate this program. That's why we ask you, “If God has used FamilyLife Today in your life,

He hasn't.

then we'd ask you to consider being a part of the financial team that helps pay for the production costs of this program.”

You can do that by making a donation, online, at FamilyLifeToday.com. That's what it means when we say we are listener-supported. Folks, like you, respond—make a contribution. We just want to stop and say, “Thanks,” to those of you who have done that in the past and ask those of you, who have maybe never made a contribution, to consider doing that today. Again, you can donate, online, at FamilyLifeToday.com; or call, toll-free, 1-800-FL-TODAY and make a donation. We do appreciate your financial support.

Now, tomorrow, we're going to go from talking about men in the family to talking about a wife's role and a mom's role in the family.

Sounds like so much fun.

Judy Rossi joins us tomorrow as we explore that subject. Hope you can be here with us.

I want to thank our engineer today, Keith Lynch, and our entire broadcast production team. On behalf of our host, Dennis Rainey, I'm Bob Lepine. We will see you back next time for another edition of FamilyLife Today.

FamilyLife Today is a production of FamilyLife of Little Rock, Arkansas. Help for today. Hope for tomorrow. We are so happy to provide these transcripts for you. However, there is a cost to produce them for our website. If you've benefited from the broadcast transcripts, would you consider donating today to help defray the costs?


Tracy E. said...

This made my day. I saw it linked on Bill (Ekhardt's) facebook page and had to read. Being that Bill and I first discussed his being a future stay-at-home dad on our honeymoon, and the fact that he is an ordained Presbyterian pastor (with 8 years in the pulpit) and I am the oft-referred-to 'doctor wife', I find many of their assumptions ludicrous. We're going on 6 years of Bill being home full time and I wouldn't change it for anything. I wonder if the fact that Bill goes to the conventions every year and is now on the board makes it more heretical? I hope so.

Fascinating that they seem much more comfortable with the idea of both of us working, which would be a blast with a full time pastor and pediatric ICU physician - anyone know a good live-in nanny? Apparently that would be more biblical. But then again, I won't 'wake up angry' until my 40's. Guess I have a few more good years.

Unfortunately I chose to read both of your transcripts with my 3 yo trying to fall asleep in my lap. My outbursts of laughter did not lead to a reasonable bed time.

Great job.

Tracy E.

Chad said...

Thank you. You are very kind.

I am sure Bill could have done a much better job in making a logical and Biblical argument to their radio broadcast.

But perhaps I am more talented at being a snarky ass in public.

Thanks again for your comment.

Anonymous said...

Love it! I find it fascinating that Bob and Dennis think it's better for both parents to work than for one parent to stay at home to take care of the kids. I guess they also think I am less of a woman because I work outside the home.

I was a little upset that Dennis and Bob think stay-at-home-dads are not masculine, but I was glad you piped up. If what we do defined our gender identity, girls should all drop out of high school and hope to marry someone who would "provide" for them for the rest of their lives.